Building collapse at Paris-Charles-de-Gaulle airport

[Kevin]

This thread is for continuing discussion of the disasterous collapse of the year-old terminal building, design by Pail Andreau, at the Paris-Charles-de-Gaulle airport.

The unusual long-span structure of a busy, prominent public building experienced a catastrophic failure, killing about four people and injuring more.

Who is to blame? Were there problems in architectural design, engineering, construction materials, methods, foundations, inspections, contracts, politics, or ?? Does the rest of the nearly one billion dollar building need to be razed for safety?

There's a basic need to talk about such a serious and shocking architectural disaster. Can it be discussed usefully, intelligently, professionally, sharing valuable and relevant experiences, knowledge, perspectives - without descending into groundless speculation?

Have you seen the building, beofre or after collapse? Or really good coverage of the disaster? Anyone have before or after pics they can post? Please share your thoughts here, and the best links you find with solid information!

[Richard Haut]

Apparently, there have been new cracks detected, and specialists in concrete, metal structures and foundations are investigating whether there are design flaws. This is of course difficult because they are faced with a tangle of concrete, metal and glass debris over more than two levels - and no rapid answer to what happened is expected.

A judicial inquiry has been opened at Bobigny (Seine-Saint-Denis) investigating manslaughter and involuntary wounding (homicides et blessures involontaires).

Pierre Graff, president of the Paris airports authority has said that if design flaws are found to be responsible, then the whole building will be demolished ("nous raserons l'ensemble").

Paul Andreu has said that the materials used in terminal 2E at Roissy-Charles-de-Gaulle involved nothing revolutionary ("rien de révolutionnaires").

[P.C.]

Hi
When Paul Andreu has said that the materials used in terminal 2E at Roissy-Charles-de-Gaulle involved nothing revolutionary ("rien de révolutionnaires") ,then this ansver maby point to the exact reson why todays architecture do not point to a promising future and new jobs.
--------- unless the fancy future must be build in bricks or as precast concrete , the technikes avaiable already, omitting the option of develobing a new aproach ,new materials and acturly using the computer to build houses at low cost, realising that the computer is here to make it easier and cheaper.
Fact is that the exiting breaking new ground ,is not done by re writing the old 2D methods into a fancy computer program and fact is, that each studio carry it's own standards it's own methods and it's own craftmen making it difficult to progress a common CAD standard and still exchousing the architects not able to work those new promising tools ,as still you need a computer specialist able to translate the vision into what can be build, with the methods and the aproach of yestoday rather than those of tomorrow.
Now anyone in this fora will know, that I am progressing a different way another aproach and an actural trust in future and new jobs, by realising that tomorrows building methods will shape not be slaved to perform, but in a number of new building methods prove, that computer programs do not need to prove old methods and yestodays aproach, acturly the terminal was an exiting piece of architecture ,but then, what made the compromisees that made it collapse ---- was it in fact so that methods and vision could not meet due to limited methods or was the aproach in terms of design limited by the actural process and options ,that did realy not allow other forms than square; is the reson that the old methods must be tourtured into performing what they can not bring.
--------- Now can you realy just draw the fancy forms as you please, do technikes provide you to build it at a cost that mirror the use of CAD ,so the cost is acturly reduced and the projecting made easy while the production of the elements is digital ------- or do any revolusionary building project still depend on having the skilled craftmen.
Now I rather stop before anyone read my comments in such way ,that you think I am just doing this only to promote my own Pony .

P.C.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3D-Honeycomb-open

[steveA]

I know nothing about the Andreu's work or the project in question. But here in the States we have a construction environment which is perhaps similar to that of France. There is increasing pressure to do work faster, on the design end, but especially in the field. Contractor's can face huge daily penalties if projects are completed late, so their is incentive to work extra hours and to cut corners. When we hear of a collapse during construction...it happened last year in Pittsburgh with Vignoli's convention center... it is almost always related to a construction error and an impossible schedule. In this respect, I worry very much about the Athen's Olympic venues.

[Richard Haut]

Horray - Per is back (incidentally, talking of old buildings - your local Palace is to be renovated for the newly married couple, though that Roman Frederik VIII did use brick at Amalienborg).

The Roissy terminal opening was delayed because of safety concerns, but from what I understand the problems of rushing to complete the job affected the finishing work - rather than the structure itself (as far as we know ...).

Per - there has to come a point at which one tries to produce revolutionary designs using non-revolutionary materials, and the contradiction must mean trouble when there is nothing inherently wrong with either the materials or the design, just with the combination. If designs progress using reactionary materials and methods, isn't trouble inevitably going to follow ? Perhaps Andreu wasn't revolutionary enough.

[hanihamad]

it says on archinect.com that the building was utilizing the same technology used in underground tunnels. I dont know but isnt that using an idea out of context i mean tunnels are designed to withstand the weight of the earth it carries as well as resist ground moisture and it doesnt bear any additional horizontal loads that is not what an airport terminal should do as it is subjected to windloads and the like. does anyone have an idea about whether that was a reason for the collapse??

[P.C.]

[Richard Haut]

you see ? Romans build houses in brick, then the Vikings come along and burn them down and use the bricks in their own houses.

Not one brick, Per - you are not to take one brick from Mary Donaldson's house (she's Australian - she'll come round and take it right back out of your wall again).

I bet that they are in Australia.

I have been puzzling over a photograph of the Roissy collapse in the newspaper (Nice-Matin, photo from Agence France Presse). One end of one of the attached walkways running at 90° from the terminal has collapsed. The walkway has no apparent problem at all - one end supporting it just disappeared.

If the notion that Hani says was mentioned on Archinect is correct, and tunnel technology was used for a raised structure, then the structure will have destroyed itself fighting forces that are not there. Exactly like using submarine technology to design an aircraft. If ("if") anything so naive was done, then this collapse will have as much effect on design as the Ronan Point collapse in the late 1960's - except that the Ronan Point collapse was started by an explosion.

The latest is that there were apparently two major pipe bursts at Roissy during the last couple of months (source "Le Parisien").

[Kevin]

Out of curiosity, I read the comment at archinect about the terminal spanning tube using tunneling technology. (As it happens I was involved for some time with what was at the time one of the world's two biggest tunnel projects - though I wasn't specialized at all in the tunnel engineering aspects.) In short, the explanation I saw about use of underground tunnel technology was confusing and did not hang together enough to make sense to me.

I wonder if an original comment about general inspiration was over-interpreted or speculated into an alleged engineering approach. Seems to me that concrete tubes have long been used in highly-engineered above-ground structures, and though complex, a long-span tube would be capable of analysis as such, rather than by analogy to the virtually unrelated underground application of the same underlying form.

If there are any solid references supporting this idea that underground tube structures were really a major reference for the actual project spanning tube engineering, I'd be very interested to see them. Without such references: I rather doubt it.

[hanihamad]

kevin you have spoken my mind so thankx

[Bo]

"I have been puzzling over a photograph of the Roissy collapse in the newspaper (Nice-Matin, photo from Agence France Presse). One end of one of the attached walkways running at 90° from the terminal has collapsed. The walkway has no apparent problem at all - one end supporting it just disappeared."

In looking at wire service photos, I see 2 things which lead me to wonder about the design and construction of a concrete tube.

#1. Dead sharp corners in all the window openings. You just don't want to do that in brittle materials (or even steel that is highly stressed).

#2. The photos show a distinct lack of rebar, which hit me the first second I saw the photos. There may be areas where the tube was always in compression and designers didn't need to use rebar, but I have my doubts.

[noynoy]

this is a reply to the guy from Pittsburg.
I live in athens, and those last months i keep listening to foreign publishments talking about security and works going in Athens Olumpics...
R U serious?? ru talking about security, about terrorism? That's enough! You provoque all this! let'a just face it . The international comitee keeps on forgeting this fact. And lets remember what happened in Atlanta in 1996! Moreover why doesn't anyone focus in Portugal's Euro in July. Greece didn't send any troops in Iraq...Portugal did! and i won't have a word about construction matters in Greece. We have really strong earthquakes and we know it and we know how to confront it. just visit the website of our new bridge that connects Rio with Antirrio in www.gefyra.gr one of the most marvellous constructions of our times.

[RWL]

Interesting article about the collapse in ENR and at the following;
http://enr.construction.com/news/buildings/archives/040531-1.asp

Has some indications and insight about possible problems, etc.