Pope Regrets, Torture Methods, and Rugger Beasts from Denver

[Ed Ziomek]

Pope Regrets, Nun is Murdered, Barbarians get Religion

A few disconnected news items…

Of course, the Pope quoted some 15th century writer on Islam, there have been some understandable criticisms and reminders of how barbaric Christianity used to be and probably still is. Regardless of his stated regrets, threats of violent reprisals have been promised by some terror groups, which is very ironic, to protest the religious allegation of violence, by answering with violence. But, lets be fair, didn’t Bush use the descriptive word “crusade” in his earliest “War of Terror” speeches? And certainly Christianity is no stranger to violence. And oh, by the way, torture or extended “rendition” methods were preached up to very recently by the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld team.

Did the Pope also condemn white prosperous usage in Iraq? Or cluster bombs in Lebanon? Or bunker busters?

Have Islamic leaders condemned the obscene butchery that is taking place in Baghdad, wherein ordinary Shia civilians are pulled off the street, progressively “drilled” in torture, then killed with a plunge to the head? Or the reverse against Sunni?

Have the Middle East nations promised to send troops to Darfur?

It is impossible for America to win in this climate of guilt and treachery and butchery all around, where everyone is to blame. Why are we trying?

On a lighter note, I got an unconfirmed, unreported tip on Colin Powell meeting with Iraqi diplomats in Aspen, Colorado on Saturday, the same time and place of a regional Rugby competition in the area.

The local Denver Rugger Team, known as the Barbarians, dressed up as Catholic Nuns after the match and invaded the local pubs for an outlandish grizzled crawl. And it never made the news, either!

Can you imagine the improbable Aspen scene, on one hand, deadly serious backroom Iraqi-American discussions taking place while the Rugger beasts were partying at the next table or bar in Nuns robes?

This to me is the beauty of America. We have light-hearted moments. We can make fun of ourselves. We can be rude and disheveled and profane, if we want to be. But never should we say that we are better than anyone else, or that other cultures should have our culture. If 2000 was the year of the Soccer wives, I would like to know the opinion of the 2006 Denver Barbarian Rugger beasts…”What is your take on the world?”

[Architorture]

i'm pretty sure this pope and the last both came out and said the actions in iraq were wrong...

its been a pretty long time since the Church has sponsored a violent action... also its kind of ironic on your side that you choose to leave out the fact that the Church is in such places as Danfur and Somolia where the first victim of this current row over faiths was killed-a nun- who i very much doubt had violent/colonial intentions...

[Richard Haut]

the Church is in very many countries and sometimes Nuns and Priests do get killed. Why they should be targetted I do not know, but I fail to see how the death of one Nun in some way lessens the nature of what the Pope said.

the quotation that he used (and chose to use) is deliberately inflammatory.

And it has a precedent - used before in German Universities.

The Nazis often quoted Martin Luther (from a hundred years after the Byzantine Emperor quoted by the Pope) who in his later years made some virulently antisemitic comments. The Pope will be well aware of this, since he was a member of an organisation for which the spreading of antisemitic ideas was central: the Hitlerjugend.

The simple-minded idea that all Muslims are violent when it is Christian countries who have brought mass-murder and terror to Muslim states is more than hypocritical.

The IAEA has described as "outrageous and dishonest" parts of a US congressional committee intelligence report on Iran's nuclear work. The reason for the American lies is in order to justify the attack on Iran - just as dishonesty was used to start the attack on Iraq.

Not all Americans have a blood-lust - and it would be offensive to say that they do. However some do.

I find it amazing that the Muslim response to the shameful Israeli actions in Lebanon has been to repeat their previously ignored peace plan. Unlike the meaningless road map, this is a real plan which - as doubtless US media will fail to tell you - includes full diplomatic recognition for Israel and security for all its borders guaranteed by all Arab States. (That's right - guaranteed by all Arab States).

The problem with racial-stereotyping of the kind used is that it works both ways. After all, not all Popes are closet Nazis.

[Richard Haut]

An article about a letter from Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar to leading Sunni cleric Yusuf Kardawi concerning the Pope's remarks (from Ha'aretz, Israel):

[Architorture]

richard if you read the pope's speech i think you would have to admit the purpose for using the quote was its nifty use of the word 'logos' which ties the overall theme of the speech- reason- in with greek philosophy, the sciences, and the final book of the new testament...

the quote also mentions violence used as a means to spread ones faith in the form of manuel expressing his opinion of mohommad...the overall point of manuels arguement is that god is reasonable and reasoned actions are those which god would agree with... since of course in the context the freedom of our minds is god's greatest gift to us as humans... so violence which is viewed as an 'unreasonable' means of discuss between logical beings would not be pleasing to manuel's god...

i think the word logos or reason were far more important to the use of the quote and the overall speech than the word mohommad...


ultimately i think it was a poor choice of quotation...the pope should have realized it would be taken out of context and people would ignore the rest of the 3500+ words in the speech...b/c everyone is looking to sensationalize things whether they are on the muslim side or the christian side...

[Richard Haut]

I don't disagree with what you say, but one has to remember just who he is. It is more likely that he is an academic who should not be in such a prominent position.

There was a very famous speech about immigration in Britain by the late Enoch Powell. It is called the "rivers of blood" speech. It caused endless trouble and is still used an an example of British racism. Powell did not mean it to be anything of the sort - it was clear from the speech and from interviews with him in the years afterwards that what he meant to say was that he did not believe that multiculturalism would work in Britain - he was showing concern for the safety of immigrants. However he used a Latin quotation which contained the "rivers of blood" expression.

One example of how an expression can alter meaning and cause hostility is the Bush "Axis of Evil" statement - a hostile and misleading thing to say. Apparently Bush's speechwriter had used the saying "Axis of Hatred" - a very clear statement, and appropriate. That simple change hardened the attitude of many towards the US.

The Pope's mistake appears to be not merely to use a quotation about violence, but one which actually insults the Prophet Mohammed. After all the stereotyping of the last few years, can anybody be surprised that so many Muslims are offended ?

personally, I think that the Pope's speech says more about the Pope than it does about Muslims. He appears to be a most peculiar man.

[Ed Ziomek]

This is my second attempt to post this message...my goof...

What scares me most about this whole situation of alleged inflammatory statement, is that it is almost 100% of the dialogue that is taking place among the cultures.

Bush refuses to dialogue with Ahmadinejad, yet threats of sanctions are being made.

How short sighted is this? How can we have peace talks without a dialogue? How can we have understanding without a dialogue?

Maybe the Pope could propose a multicultural/theological conference... Catholic, Judaic, Muslim... talk out differences. The Rabbi's letter is a wonderful first step.

I am tending to think that the Pope's comments may be the spark that ignites more understanding.

The contrarian in me thinks radical Islamics and radical Republicans want the disturbance rather than the talk...??? Absurd thought? Or hasn't that been the pattern so far?

[Richard Haut]

Ed

I think you have it exactly right - the extremists "feed" off trouble; they need it in order to continue being extremists. It doesn't matter what religion or group they belong to.

Perhaps that is why so many people in so many places are baffled by what seems to be a total lack of common sense.

The change in the last few months is that the world is beginning to see what is happening - the attack on the Lebanese by Israel has no rational explanation. The Pope using inflammatory remarks about Muslims was not a positive step.

But it is the very extremism of those events that may make people wake up.

The damning response to America by the IAEA over the latest lies about Iran has apparently started to make American analysts and others tougher in refusing to allow their work to be misrepresented.

But to return to your original point: what is confusing for many about America is how is it possible that a country whose ordinary people responded to 9.11 with such courage and decency (and the response by New Yorkers was world-class) be the same country that leaves New Orleans to, literally, sink or swim ?

[Ed Ziomek]

Again, the cynical monster inside me hears street talk that massive real estate boom is taking place in the destroyed portions of New Orleans, that as horrible as it sounds, the powers that be don't want the original inhabitants back.

Money talks. Money walks. Its not like compensation money wasn't earmarked for the survivors and the displaced, but somehow...no gotz!

Back on the UN stuff... a neat little moment caught on TV in the United Nations lobby yesterday...Clinton and Bush shaking a farewell handshake yesterday on their departures...Condy Rice following close behind her mentor, then sneaking a BEAMING smile back at Wild Bill...as in ..."Lunch, Sir Romeo?" She is either the charmer personified, or it was a loaded, gushing message. "We should talk!?"

Hey, she is human after all!

[Ed Ziomek]

More than a week has gone by since the Pope's mis-guided attempt to illuminate the "violence aspect" of the middle east.

At least 100 or more Iraqis are dieing per day with very little if ANY criticism against this violence, and this butchery number may extend into Ramadan.

Thankfully, one Iraqi cleric has gone public asking for a stopping of all the violence and killing among the Muslims of Iraq.

Meanwhile, Hasan Nasrallah, the chief Hezbollah cleric in Lebanon appeared at a massive support rally in Beirut....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/22/AR2006092200299.html?nav=rss_email/components

"His message was defiant, with the bravado the crowd expected: Hezbollah was stronger than before the war, he said, and it still possessed more than 20,000 rockets. Only the creation of a strong Lebanese government, he added, would lead to its disarmament, as demanded by the United Nations."

On the very, very bright side, I did see a CNN roundtable discussion with Bill Clinton, and a Lebanese representative, hosted by Christiane Amanpour. Amazing quotations, amazing dialogue, just what is needed for these topics and understanding.

And last I heard, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was asking for a direct dialogue with the United States!

Why can't this happen? If the White House can't stomach meeting him face to face, why not Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Jesse Jackson?

Bottom line, ignorant me asks...Are the Muslim nations divided against themselves?

Do they need a moderated "Intervention" to get them to agree amongst themselves on a ??? unifying, ??? mission statement?

[Ed Ziomek]

Today's newspapers carried the Pope meeting with Islamic representatives in Italy.

"He asked for a dialogue, but he gave a monologue" was one of the Islamic reps criticisms after the short "meeting".

To me, what could have been a wonderful story is in reality a terrible let down.

The Pope said the right words, but did not follow through and show how it could be done. Much, much more talking and listening and understanding is needed among the Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

PS...as a raised Christian, the word on the street is that this Pope is not like the previous, not as lovable, not as sociable, and I am waiting for a more positive impression. It might not happen.