World Trade Centre [WTC] Collapse

[Richard Haut]

Ed

no apology needed - those who set up, helped and profited from 9/11 are completely cracked and should be hunted down.

the difficulty is in identifying them and let's be clear: some of them sit in luxury offices, not in caves on the other side of the world.

unfortunately working out what might have happened does require considering what may have been going through their sick minds.

9/11 was a very clever attack - it used non-weapons as weapons and yet managed to have a bigger effect than if it had used military hardware. That means that aside of the questions of what, why and who - we are left with the serious problem of "how".

a known building defect is a possibility.

[justellus]

Here is a very interesting link on this World Trade Center dilema:

http://www.jflf.org/pdfs/wi102/skyscrapers.pdf

[Richard Haut]

the buildings were designed - as has been clearly stated many times - to withstand damage by an airliner. Certainly the planes that did hit the WTC were of a more recent design and larger size that those originally considered, but one of the points which does not seem to have been addressed is that the aviation fuel cannot have changed much, can it ?

for the explanation to be accepted, it must also be accepted that the buildings were not able to withstand being hit by an airliner and that the central core plus other aspects of the floors, ceilings, fixings, etc. must have been too light for their job.

the fires were NOT of long duration.

and even if one gets past all that, how is it that the buildings were reduced - almost in their entirety - to powder ?

and even if one finds some way of explaining that, one is still left with the problem of WTC7.

sorry, but simplistic talk about books dropped on a table just will not do after so many years. 9/11 was and remains a crime - a crime which is largely unsolved - and it must be solved even if there are many who find it difficult or uncomfortable.

[Ed Ziomek]

Great information here, great perspectives, let me add to the questions, no answers.

First of all, are we trying to out-think Mother Nature?

Could it be that a plane full of aviation fuel was aided by a blast furnace effect of elevator shafts containing cool air being sucked up the "chimney" by the furnaces created up above?

The Towers started to lean prior to the collapse, meaning to me that one side of the buildings was weakened prior to collapse.

Rich, clue me in here and I admit my enormous profound ignorance here. New Yorkers were/are extremely proud of those buildings, but to say they were "Symbols of America" is way off balance to the reality of the day. Most Americans had no emotional attachment to those buildings, it represented absolutely nothing like the Statue of Liberty, or the White House. Are you saying there were political forces working against the symbolism of the structure, or the businesses it contained to want it to come down?

I don't see anything like that.

Mother nature follows all of its rules, all of the time, and I don't any building could sustain an impact like it had, for extended periods of time, like one full hour of blast furnace conditions on 3/4 of an entire floor, so high on the structure, especially since the extreme lightweight, low density concrete, and the truss ceiling supports naturally failed under the progressive stresses.

[Malachy Larkin]

There was no blast furnace core effect because most of the fuel burned off upon impact,in addition the cores were highly fireproofed with little in the way of flammable material.

The collapse of WT7 is even more mysterious.It was text book demolition with initial top crimping and folding in, followed by rapid freefall.
This was a major tower block brought down according to official reports by ordinary office fires.!
Is this believable? Take a look at any of the videos on the net and ask yourself did burning office paper and desks do this?.

Why was all the steel debris evidence so hastily disposed off.?
This was a crime scene of approx 3000 murders and the crime scene evidence is hastily melted down!

Untill there is a rigorous,impartial and thorough investigation of why these buildings collapsed I for one will not be satisfied.

The whole business is a serious criticism of the forensic skill of the investigative authorities to think that so many many questions remain unanswered 8 years on.

[justellus]

One only has to do a little thinking to realize there are too many un-explained facts - a few are....

Those models of jets are too sophisticated and cannot fly on manual pilot at that speed they hit the towers, but only by remote control. This means someone from another location flew them into the towers.

A cell phone call from flight 93 - lady calling her husband? Fake, a charade. Cells phones don't work on airplanes. Plus, they found all her documents and papers in her pocket at the wreckage site intact - impossible for those papers and plastic elements/documents in her pocket to have survived intact. They were planted at the wreckage site.

http://www(dot)disclose(dot)tv/action/viewvideo/8774/Fake_9_11_Call_From_Flight_93_Exposed_/

And Jewish workers in the building were warned a week before of the event not to go to work, together with many NY residents...

These among hundreds of unexplained facts. And there is too much cover-up and hiding of information from the public, in sites and information they don't want you to see or know about....

(as in the above link for example)

This may sound like another conspiracy theory, but when simple facts do not add up and have no explanation, one can only conclude that....

[Ed Ziomek]

Malachy... fuel had entered at least one of the elevator shafts at impact.

But bottom line, you are right, I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, but are you claiming to know the correct answer?

Justellus... Back handed racism, your comment. Not good. Terrible, in fact.

Can you provide any proof that any single group was notified, one week prior to the event?

As I mentioned before, inadvertently, I was an FBI witness, in that I saw an Islamic cleric being accompanied by two burly types, at exactly midnight on the night of 9-10/9-11, at Newark airport baggage claim. Two other drivers I was with identified the person in the monk's type frock as a "Halipha", not a spam Orthodox priest as I supposed. Days later, the newspaper reported a few Islamic leaders had left the country the day before. One of the burly guys walking with a knuckle dragging walk I recognized (plausibly, not 100% sure) on a PBS special... "Why they hate us" or something like that, as the Blind Sheik's bodyguard, and probable hijacker.

Fact, I believe, is that an estimated 20% of the fatalities in WTC were Islamic. They obviously hadn't been warned about anything. Are we saying one group WAS warned, and Islamics were NOT warned?

Yet, curiously, a Christian television producer told me that an Islamic taxi driver warned HIM the day before, that "Say your prayers, tomorrow will change your life".

End of the day, can we leave racism out of these posts? Can we be more responsible and more respectful of each other, or do we implode into smears and cartoons?

PS... my guy was "King of the Jews", a Jewish carpenter, which I guess makes me PROUDLY Jewish too, and you Jewish too, I suppose, and I wasn't warned. And what the hell, I am most positively, PROUDLY, part Arab too.

Sons of Abraham, unite!!!

[justellus]

Not nice to read into things - not intended as a racist remark - just a few of the bits and pieces of facts that I recollect from different programs and info gathered, in one of the other threads also. (Don't have anything against Jews no, nor any other group...as some insist. The facts speak for themselves...) And there is much more. The video of the cell phone call from the airplane demonstrates it was obviously a hoax. The voice can be heard in the background, after the call is finished: "You did a good job", as she left the phone on, on purpose after making the call. So obviously the whole phone call was set-up. Then there was a very important key witness in the gov that was going to squeal, and they found his body at the wreckage site...just too many unexplained facts..... and many more facts where those came from...

[Ed Ziomek]

Not nice to repeat racist opinions, calling them facts to the world, especially when they single out an entire race which you most likely share, which you never reference with any proof.

How about ONE written reference to the Judaic remark? How about just ONE!!!

Just one, Mr. Scientific method.

[justellus]

Proof can be found in one of these other discussions here in DC - can't seem to locate it yet. I think someone can find it if they just do a little digging. It won't take much effort is someone would like to find that information, even other sources.

Plus, it is not productive to enter an argument being created by those upset with another discussion that went sour.

Nobody is forced to submit proof of anything or to believe anything.

People can believe what they want, and if their mind is made up, no matter of facts will convince them. Particularly if one would present a huge amount of information that would demonstrate that what we are hearing does not add up. Those who hold on to their views will fight to the end to preserve their power structures and guarantee that the truth will never be known.

In the end, if we focus solely on the technical issues, we will be much better off, then to seek or await for a substantial amount of eye witnesses to show up and tell us they had prior knowledge. Perhaps someone should set-up a website of the thousands who had prior knowledge, so that the fact may at once be proven for all to see.

Just the one fact that those models of jets do not fly on manual control at that speed is convincing enough. Those models of jets, one will see, are designed that way - and they have become so sophisticated, that they can only be flown by computer - they take off and land mostly by computer. If manual pilot is needed at all, it must be engaged and maintained at a greater speed, or automatic pilot will kick in. That is why it is designed this way, for greater safety. Thus, they could only be flown by remote control at that speed. So what does this one fact alone tell us? It is quite plain to see. If anyone wishes to take on and disprove disprove this one fact, this will suffice for the moment.

And someone whispering in the background "you did a good job"? Just look at the video. And the link does work.

Again, the technical explanations so far of how the columns could have disintegrated simply do not add up, as mentioned. Columns crashing in on each other would not cause the others to crush into dust, would they? They would cause them to bend and distort their shapes. So where are the engineers at this point? Completely lost? Thus, we would have found tons of distorted columns, that would and could be analyzed to find out how the towers collapsed. The fact that they were turned into dust and very small pieces is very strange indeed.

So again, it will be best to plain just leave out the "racist" claims and issues and focus on the technical details and aspects, that are thus far un-explained.

[HorizonDesign]

A compelling link on this topic can be found here:

http://www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/Missing_Jews.htm

[Ed Ziomek]

Justellus... you can't find it now, but I am sure you will eventually find something.

Malachy... I looked up your reference, and the opening line?

"This is a primary (original) document representing antisemitism post 9-11. It is posted here as an archival example, and it does not in any way represent the views of Political Research Associates, the Public Eye website, or our funders and supporters. This page is part of a larger collection on Conspiracism after 9-11. Read more about why we post this type of document. "

How about this, we leave out all blanket racial and sexist comments, ok? Lay off the naming races bit, or racial slurs, or Hitler videos, or bioterror illusions, or what someone would do to the President of the United States, you know, what has appeared in these threads before.

How about, we are the responsible people we claim to be, and show what a wonderful thread and opportunity this website really, really IS!!!

No proof need, integrity needed! Responsibility needed.

I knew you would agree.

[O-Archy]

I'm with you Ed,

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Cheers,
Mike