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Postby csintexas » Mon May 18, 2009 11:09 am

To think that a grown man is proud to call people names on the internet is almost funny but really it's just quite sad.


Look who's talking -you have a whole site dedicated to name calling.

And I wasn't talking about the skill of insulting (anyone can do that) I was talking about my skill of identifying morons and the stupid things they say.

Here is a particularly good one:

Phansford:
Mr. Wright was educated (U of Wisconsin - a degree in engineering)


I realize that the history of our profession is not clearly or thoughtfully taught in academia - but really - Frank Lloyd Wright.....



I guess you can do or say anything if you don't have any academic rigor.



According to WIKI:
Wright attended a Madison high school but there is no evidence he ever graduated. He was admitted to the University of Wisconsin-Madison as a special student in 1886. There he joined Phi Delta Theta fraternity, took classes part-time for two semesters, and worked with a professor of civil engineering, Allan D. Conover


Does this demonstrate even minimal academic rigor?

This stuff is pure gold.,I just can't help but pick it up.
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Postby phansford » Mon May 18, 2009 2:39 pm

Wow - An internet mistake.... it must be a first. I guess I should have said Mr. Wright was enrolled in engineering at Wisconsin :roll:

Chris - Mr. Wright's tendency to exaggerate his background is commonly known. Sullivan was very clear that Mr. Wright had little involvement in the design of the Auditorium, but Wright would have us believe he did the entire project.

My reference is "In the Nature of Materials" by H. Russell Hitchcock, which is considered one of the primary sources for studying Wright. Wright cooperated with Mr. Hitchcock during the writing of the book. Hitchcock actually starts the book by saying that Wright left U of Wisconsin the Spring of 1886 and that is about it. (My bad - I guess)

Several of the Fellowship Apprentices have mentioned that Wright attended/graduated. It has always been an issue of confusion as to whether Mr. Wright actually completed his studies at Wisconsin or to even what extent his education was at UofW.

If it makes you feel better :roll: - Mr. Wright was always well-known for his public distaste for academia - except where it profited him personally. The Talisen Fellowship was nothing more than a way for Wright to dodge taxes and actually get people to pay him to work in his office, tend his farm, and do his laundry. (The Fellowship was set up as a non-profit)

My original point being that Mr. Wright did obtain some level of formal education, plus his apprenticing with Silsbee and Sullivan. This is unique as many people did not attend College in 19th C. - particularly those wanting to practice Architecture. Futhermore - apprentice was the most common method to gain admittance into the profession. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY - there were people who "designed" buildings but never referred to themselves as architects, but rather draughtsman and designers. I do enough historic preservation work to have seen hundreds of historic drawings with the clear delineation of the various titles. Mr. Wright was always considered an architect during his lifetime.

Furthermore - my point was directed to someone else not you.... but as of late you seem to react to any comment as a personal affront to you. :?:

BTW-While I myself will reference Wikipedia as a starting point, I wouldn't use it for the rigors of academic research. Wiki does have its issues Which btw seems to have let you down on the question of Vitruvius. Originally written approximately 25 BC, the Ten Books have been translated a number of times. I own and have read a couple - my favorite being Thomas Gordon Smith's Vitruvius on Architecture. Professor Smith only translates the Books I, III, IV, V, and VI as they are the books that are directly related to architecture. Many of the other books address military architecture.

The importance of Vitruvius - other than defining commodity, firmness, and delight - is that it is the oldest surviving treatise on architecture. He, in fact, refers earlier works by other authors. The Ten Books is a light into how classical architecture was practiced and built. But then again.... Vitruvius was just a building designer since he was not required to take a licensing exam.... so lets just discount him :roll:

I am not sure what your issue is of late. Its kinda of sad. I always felt you added a lot to the conversation. But in the recent past, you have done more attacking people rather than engaging in conversation. And unfortunately, the more I engage the "residential designers" on this forum, the more I move away from supporting their position and value within the residential market. :cry:
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Postby Checkpoint43 » Mon May 18, 2009 4:06 pm

Does reading a book on Vitruvies make you a better designer or does practicing architecture do that?

I read some books on Donald Trump. Does that make me a billionaire?
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Postby djswan » Mon May 18, 2009 4:19 pm

Wright was a backstabbing engineer, like somebody I know in this thread. :lol: Got to grow that third eye to see the bs.

Dang spelling of all things, hurts my chances at academic rigor... and laughing while I'm typing doesn't help either. :lol:
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Postby phansford » Mon May 18, 2009 5:19 pm

Checkpoint43 wrote:Does reading a book on Vitruvies make you a better designer or does practicing architecture do that?

I read some books on Donald Trump. Does that make me a billionaire?


Hey Brainiac, it is spelled Vitruvius.

I think I would be remiss in my civic duty to inform you that reading comic books will not give you the ability to leap tall buildings, run faster than a speeding train, or to stop bullets with your impenetrable skin..... but on the other hand.... have at Kal-El.
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Postby Checkpoint43 » Mon May 18, 2009 6:52 pm

Trump doesn't write comic books.
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Postby cousinbirgco » Mon May 18, 2009 8:17 pm

I was thinking about a couple of really important things today.
Frank Lloyd Wright must have been some kind of god or something. His work is extrodinary.
(and I don't even like modern architecture :o )
I wondered if he is in some kind of architecture/engineering purgatory like the Twilight Zone episode
with Jonathan Winters as Minnesota Fats.
Everytime some two bit punk invokes his name, he has to go down
(or up :D ) to earth to play the challenger. I hope it isn't like that for Mr. Wright.
The other thing I thought about today was the bad guy in the TV
show "24". I knew that Tony Almeida would eventually betray
Jack Bauer (psssst, his name rhymes with Al-Qaeda)
Anyway, actually I was thinking about a third thing too. If you really want
clear up this whole mess with the Lombard Village officials, I would
contact my local news station, (like here in N.Y. we have Arnold Diaz who
runs a segment known as "Shame on You". He would route out the bad guys in about 2 seconds.
They run like hell when he starts digging and asking
embarrassing questions like why did so and so give
you a sweetheart deal on such and such.
(well that's what I would do....... :roll: )
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Postby djswan » Mon May 18, 2009 8:38 pm

He was just a playboy who scored the jobs. His work in Whitefish, Montana is ego crap, it looks out of place. The Brad Pitt of his day.l Isn't he an architect now? Sullivan was the god.

That was another idea that didn't involve "you need to get a lawyer".
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Postby O-Archy » Mon May 18, 2009 11:56 pm

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!

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Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 5:15 am Post subject:
Quote (by phansford):
While talking about Frank Lloyd Wright, I'll have to take a picture and post it, one of the structural engineers that looked at the porches built a "mini Robie house" just a few blocks away from where the porch collapsed, it's neat.


If you think that is some fancy engineering work you should see a space shuttle they are incredible. (oh wait two have had catastrophic failure)

Fire the architect!
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It is true I enjoy pissing matches and will take anyone who starts one on.
-Chris Stewart

"Firmeness, commodity + delight"


So I was 'Playing up' the use of the english language, like olde engrish isn't propah for you? Whaddayou? grammah cop? Your thick sarcasm in the statement about the space shuttles was not missed, your response that I should re-read the post, well, I did, and... Mistah Stewahrt what are you tryin' to pull? Sheesh, If the world was unable to communicate through sooo many centuries... I see that mis-understanding the context of a statement would frustrate many. What if our communications were in another language? Vive la difference? No? Au Contraire, mon ami.

Vitruvius was active during the period of 46-30 B.C. A Roman architect, his treatise on architecture did not become well-known and read until the Middle Ages. "A vast number of subsequent editions and translations in nearly all European languages appeared. The obscurity of the text, which made a strong appeal to the Renaissance intellect, enabled architects to interpret its gnomic statements in a variety of ways." -from Fleming / Honour / Pevsner - The Penguin Dictionary of Architecture

Yes, history is important, and this hijacked thread has gone into a squabble about credibility... One cannot design in a vacuum, one needs to begin at a concept that is supported by sound research into what ever the owner's program has laid out.
"we have the known unknowns" -Donald Rumsfeld

Waaay too much blame-gaming going on, when our society is obsessed with gaining instant gratifaction, constant contact, obscene material wealth, a 24/7 news cycle....

Yes, Sullivan was a giant in the practice of architecture, and FLW was a tremendous talent with a huge ego. That does not mean that FLW's body of work is to be dismissed due to a few cutting edge material 'experiments' with form and function.
Sullivan's statement 'form follows function' has long been misunderstood.
"Form and function do not docilely wait for one another to open the door. Form invokes function; function invokes form ... and so on around the circle." William H. Jordy - American Buildings and their Architects
It's been great to re-read several books, which contain valuable info...
"All buildings have a function. They are undertaken not to gratify the designer but to fulfill a social purpose. Of course, compared with the high-minded role of a cathedral or of a chapel, the use of a shed is lowly indeed. This is what John Ruskin meant when he said that the purpose of architecture was to raise men's spirits, which 'merely' utilitarian buildings were not required to do." - Witold Rybcynzinski, The Most Beautiful House in the World
Well, that's my opinion / rant.
Thanks for reading
Cheers,
Mike
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Postby phansford » Tue May 19, 2009 8:25 am

O-Archy wrote:THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!


:lol: you can say that again :lol:

Interesting quotes. And interestingly enough - many of the current architecture students that visit my office looking for employment don't seem knowledgeable or well-read. A fellow architect and I were discussing this recently as visiting critics at our alma mater. We both began rattling off books that students should read..... Wondering what you add to that list.

Ours included........

Towards a New Architecture - LeCorbusier
Complexity and Contradiction - Venturi (I always have to throw in Learning from Las Vegas also :lol:)
Kindergarden Chats - Sullivan
Reading the 4 or 5 books of Vitruvius related to Architecture isn't bad
Mathematics of the Ideal Villa - Colin Rowe
Place of Houses - Charles Moore

Two of the hot reads used to be an over-photocopied "Space and Anti-space by Steven Peterson (from the hard-to-find Harvard Architecture Review #1) and French Hotel Plans by Michael Dennis (it was a xerox book from the GSD and passed down through the schools - eventually became the book Court & Garden)

I typically also throw in some on urban planning such as

Urban Space - Rob Krier
City Planning - Camillo Sitte
Collage City - Rowe and Koetter
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Postby csintexas » Tue May 19, 2009 8:54 am

Not really sure what point you are trying to make there O-Archy. So the topic of this thread is actually about Wright?

I don't know exactly what you two are talking about with regards to my explanation of "Firmeness, commodity + delight" -I didn't take it as a serious question in the first place. Did you two really want to discuss this topic in this thread? I did not give a lengthy explanation but what I said was correct enough.

Actually I did not get that from WIKI so it could not have let me down.

If you all would just simply stop making asinine comments in an effort to make yourselves look like intellectuals I would not be picking on you so much. It isn't that you made a mistake phansford it is that you made it while attempting to wrap yourself in an air of scholarly superiority.

You are a smart person phansford, it is just sometimes you need a dose of humility. If you had kept to the discussion instead of trying to discount and bash and set yourself up as high and holy we would not be where we currently are. If you want everyone to consider you an intellect you seriously need to make less extremely obvious mistakes. (and I am not talking about spelling errors)

I had not even said one word to O-Archy he just jumped in swinging.

If you all want to keep discussions civil you need to start by being civil. And for God's sake if you are going to accuse someone of hijacking a thread make sure you are not contributing to the hijacking yourself.
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Postby djswan » Tue May 19, 2009 3:18 pm

O-Archy wrote:THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!



Yes, Sullivan was a giant in the practice of architecture,

Sullivan's statement 'form follows function' has long been misunderstood.


Ok man, I'll do anything you say... except give Wright any credit.

Naw, the quote hasn't been misunderstood at all. In fact, it's about as straight and easy as it gets. I'll make it more complicated for you with this. Events are to chaos as function is to form. This thread has almost taken me "full circle".

Cheers

Derek
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Postby csintexas » Tue May 19, 2009 4:26 pm

One more DJ and you hit a thousand -Make it profound ;)
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Postby Mark Mc » Fri May 22, 2009 9:43 am

Ultimately this is what the thread is about:

Porch Collapse Nearly Kills Mom, Child

Marisa Costello still has trouble coping, physically and emotionally, with the deck collapse which fractured her ankle.

"The worst part about it is that awful awful sound. When it was tearing from the house, and I knew what was coming next, and I keep getting that sound in my head,” said Costello.

She believes it could have easily killed her and her daughter Arianna.

I just keep telling myself that this could have been a funeral. This could have been a double funeral,” said Costello.

On May fourth, four-year-old Arianna was sitting on the deck, waiting to do some finger-painting, when her mother stepped outside from the kitchen. The deck collapsed, and Mrs. Costello fell ten to twelve feet to the ground. She caught her falling daughter with one hand.

She held off a falling table with the other. Then she saw her left ankle, protruding through her skin.

“Mom then grabs her foot and reattaches the bone inside, which the doctor said may have saved her life because it stemmed the bleeding,” said attorney Patrick Murphy.

He is the family’s attorney, and he says that village code requires builders to use lag bolts to attach decks to homes. Costello’s deck was attached with no more than twenty nails.

“Somebody would have to make the intentional decision not to use bolts and to use only nails and to violate the building code,” said Murphy.

The home's builder, Town and Country Homes Chicago, says it's investigating. The company president says it's had a solid half century of building homes here but will now inspect decks at almost a thousand of its other homes, to make sure they're safe.

“We're appalled that this could happen in one of our homes. Again, I would reiterate we are taking measures to make sure it doesn't happen again,” said President of Town and County Chicago Andy Konovodoff.

Mrs. Costello will file the lawsuit, blaming Town and Country, and a subcontractor, Residential Carpentry, for the accident. The subcontractor did not return our calls.

“I’m shaking; I’m trying to be calm. Just talking about it makes me shake. It's terrifying,” said Costello.

Link




I wonder if the plans were sufficient, they must have been. Maybe the plans were just stupid. The collapse was probably staged because it was inspected and passed so there is no way a collapse could have happened. This was on the news just the other day and is what the website and thread is really about.

Coincidentally, this happened in the very town where the guy practicing unlicensed architecture lives.

Lets see what else is going on in the Chicago area:




Three hurt in Lincoln Park porch collapse
Comments

May 4, 2009
FROM STNG WIRE REPORTS

Three people were hospitalized after a porch collapsed at a Lincoln Park apartment building Saturday night on the North Side.

At 8:30 p.m., a first-floor porch gave way on the 2000 block of North Orleans Street and three people were injured, police and fire officials said.

A still-and-box alarm -- the standard response for a collapse -- was automatically initiated and was secured shortly after crews arrived, MacGregor said.

Three people fell about six feet into an area below and were taken to hospitals, most with ankle and leg injuries, MacGregor said.

One person was taken in serious-to-critical condition to Advocate Illinois Masonic Medical Center and two people were taken in good-to-fair condition to Northwestern University Medical Center, MacGregor said.



Link





Image

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Postby csintexas » Fri May 22, 2009 1:29 pm

Mark, I am sure a lot of things happen in the town where that guy lives, could you please just stop making these kinds of stupid comments so that we can focus on what is important.

No one here is questioning the fact that there are problems with decks and even houses in general and also every other kind of structure ever built.

I think if your site was dedicated to these issues in general it would be better than what you currently have on there.

This again is a completely avoidable collapse of a residential deck. We need better safe guards to insure these decks are built properly.

Clearly some sort of visible attachment is needed. One that can be inspected before any covering material is allowed to be placed.

Inspectors need to be made better aware that this is a critical item probably requiring it's own separate inspection, permit and appropriate paperwork.

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