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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 846
Location: SW Ohio
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 Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: PC and BIM |
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I don't want to hijack Alfred's thread about forum log-on problems, so..... a new thread.....
| Matt wrote: |
other than the fact that this forum is... if not deceased, definitely laying on the newspaper on the bottom of the cage, and not moving... not dead yet, just pinin' for the fjords. |
Interesting comment Matt. I too have noticed fewer and fewer posts concerning PC. Is this due to a reduction in PC users or that the program is fairly stable and seems to meet everyone's needs.
This has never been a real active community - but there are the cast of regulars.
There is a major shift occurring within the CAD world and we need to know if PowerCADD is interested in moving in that direction. Are users abandoning PC for Revit or other BIM programs?
As President-Elect of my local CSI chapter, I put together a BIM roundtable at our annual Product Show. It was well attended as an architect, M/P/E engineer, and a contractor discussed "getting there from here" and the paths they have used and the successes/failures they have encountered in the process. The program was moderated by an RA who teaches BIM (Revit) at the local community college. The whole program was insightful. However, these were all large firms talking about BIM. One a former PowerCADD users out of the Cincinnati area - who is listed on the ES website has moved completely to Revit (over 80 seats).
Here are some of the big issues (to me) that came out of the roundtable:
- BIM takes a lot of memory and hardware. The design professionals stated it cost them about $8-9 K per station.
- The learning curve is 12 months although both forced their staffs to learn quicker..... mistakes were made.
- No stated clients were demanding BIM. (although GAS and DOD have developed time lines for implementation for federal projects)
- There is an annual fee to maintaining their BIM programs. (Most of us know ACAD has an annual license..... I would like to take this moment to thank Bill Stanley for not implementing this at ES, but I would understand if I needed to pay a couple hundred bucks a year for support and development)
- The contractor was putting any project they get into BIM, whether the architect used it or not!!
- All agreed the BIM Model was never complete and all conflicts were not resolved. (ie: unless the architect cuts the hole in the roof for the plumbing vent, there will be a conflict. Typically this is not resolved.... it was not deemed necessary.)
I am beginning to think that there might be a time I need to switch to a BIM program. But when and why are big questions.
Personally - I love PC. After so many years using it... I think I am on my fourth version... it is second nature to me. I think I had PowerDraw 3, PowerCADD 4, 6 and now 8. I have noticed the new Object Notes window. (or maybe I am just getting around to noticing it) Is this a precursor to ES moving PC to BIM.
I don't see a high value in purchasing a BIM style program for the type of work my firm procures. I do a lot of interior renovations, additions, and small buildings (under 10,000 SF). I still do a handful of residential work each year. I have a friend that uses ArchiCad and he says the additional time to use all of the "BIM" features would be not be possible economically speaking. His current fees would not support his inputing all of the additional information.
One question is will I be able to share files with BIM programs in the future? Will ACAD abandon the dwg file format completely to help continue their near monoply of the industry?
Anyway... thoughts comments. This seems to me to be the biggest issue in our profession at the moment..... that and LEED. |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 534
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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The biggest problem in my profession these days is that there is no work.
PowerCADD's paradigm is diametrically opposed to BIM. PowerCADD can't handle ACAD text seamlessly, why on earth would you think it would handle BIM? PowerCADD is good for 2D drawing, for people who care what their drawings look like, and confines their work to the mac platform. This is a small market and getting smaller. Technical drawings are done on PCs these days, not on macs (except for the few, who linger here like the elves at the end of the days of Middle Earth).
BIM is a system that benefits the other entities in the construction industry, but expected to be implemented at the cost of the designer, the benefits to whom are vanishingly small and distant, if the design team does it's job properly.
Last edited by Matt on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 846
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Matt- good comments. The quality and appearance of the drawings are very important to me. Do I really need a BIM style software with Sketchup and PC as my main design tools? I don't think so.....
The other thing that struck me about Revit(BIM) was basically it takes senior architects out of the loop quite a bit - which I think you are alluding to. One of the thoughts I took from the aforementioned roundtable was the two larger design firms have clear E & O issues. It seemed to me to be based on the disconnect between the Project Manager (assuming licensed professional) and the CAD operator. As CAD programs get more complicated and the older architects are unable to stay current or proficient. The next thing you know.... they aren't involved in a detailed manner with the creation of the drawings.
It seems to me that more and more work is being done at the CAD operator level and BIM basically allows a project manager (or project architect - how ever a firm has set up their teams) a way not to spend his time reviewing and coordinating the project - thus the chance for more mistakes.
I am coming to realize that at 47 years old - and being a single person firm - I am one of the few architects my age who actually still practice architecture.... you know - actually design and detail buildings. Even when I have an assistant, I am on the box designing and "drafting". Even if I function as a Project Manager/Architect - I am doing the final redlines myself as to reduce time and to make sure first hand that things are correct. And I have what I feel is a high level of quality control. |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 534
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| BIM systems that tout their 'efficiency' are based on a fundamental misconception about the design process -- they assume that the destination is known from the outset. |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 534
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| furthermore, the expertise necessary to operate BIM software subtracts from the expertise that the operator might otherwise acquire in knowing how buildings actually should be put together, resulting in a degradation in the quality of the output. This degradation is of no concern to the forces in the market, which are interested only in speed and profitability. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 846
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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So ...... we can put you down for not liking BIM 
I have a lot of concerns how BIM has entered the marketplace. Basically - a couple of software companies decide to develop a particular product that may or may not have had interest or a demand in the marketplace. They go to the Federal government.... tell them that this new software product will save all sorts of money due to conflicts and coordination issues. (which by the way... I have personally never experienced) They convince the Feds to require BIM usage....... the funny part being that the one pushing for it did not get selected as the standard by GSA and the other got selected as the standard by DOD.
Now the design profession is being forced to move to this new software. Typical of the profession letting forces outside the profession direct its future..... probably why I am no longer a member of the AIA.
All of this aside, if BIM takes - where will it put those of us who are small and can't absorb the high costs of hardware and training. |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 534
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| We'll be profitable if we know what we're doing, as always. There are many jobs that don't make sense in BIM. |
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raleighross
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 397
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| phansford wrote: | The other thing that struck me about Revit(BIM) was basically it takes senior architects out of the loop quite a bit - which I think you are alluding to. One of the thoughts I took from the aforementioned roundtable was the two larger design firms have clear E & O issues. It seemed to me to be based on the disconnect between the Project Manager (assuming licensed professional) and the CAD operator. As CAD programs get more complicated and the older architects are unable to stay current or proficient. The next thing you know.... they aren't involved in a detailed manner with the creation of the drawings.
It seems to me that more and more work is being done at the CAD operator level and BIM basically allows a project manager (or project architect - how ever a firm has set up their teams) a way not to spend his time reviewing and coordinating the project - thus the chance for more mistakes. |
Sorry. But this sounds just like comments made to me 10 years ago. Only the problem then was people using computers and software like PowerCADD and how it was taking the design process away from architects and turning it over to "CAD operators". |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 846
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt wrote: | | There are many jobs that don't make sense in BIM. |
That really sums up how I feel about using BIM on the types of projects that I currently procure. Tenant fit-ups, residential additions/renovations, office additions, Commercial renovations. BIM does not really bring anything to the table for me.
Maybe this is a question for HUC. Can we take dwg files and translate them into a BIM format? Lets take a project done in ACAD 5 years ago.... the client comes back to the original architect and wants an interior renovation.
Of course, what I find interesting in all of this BIM talk is how its going to help the Owner. I provide dwg files for a lot of our clients who are facility managers. I can tell you with great confidence that 1) the owner does not know how to use CAD.... they might have somebody somewhere, but the facility guy typically does not and 2) the owner never uses the CAD file to manage the facility post-construction.
The file is on a disk at the bottom of someone's desk and it might get pulled out if another design professional asks for it. Now I could see a large institution like a college with an architectural staff that might actually use the BIM model or the CAD files at a later date, but it seems to be on rare occasion. I would be interested in hearing other peoples experience. |
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GaryV
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 283
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can we take dwg files and translate them into a BIM format? Lets take a project done in ACAD 5 years ago.... the client comes back to the original architect and wants an interior renovation. |
I am pretty sure this is not possible but this is based on only one experoence with a Revit user. I think the Revit model needs to be created from scratch.
I do know you can take a Revit model and export it to dwg and get 2d dwg files. However, going the other way is not possible except for possibly using the dwg files on a layer you would ultimately hide, to create the Revit model "on top of", like you can do with SU. In the end though you are basically starting from scratch with little value from the original dwg files.
-Gary |
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goforbbs
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 2
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 846
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| raleighross wrote: | | phansford wrote: | The other thing that struck me about Revit(BIM) was basically it takes senior architects out of the loop quite a bit - which I think you are alluding to. One of the thoughts I took from the aforementioned roundtable was the two larger design firms have clear E & O issues. It seemed to me to be based on the disconnect between the Project Manager (assuming licensed professional) and the CAD operator. As CAD programs get more complicated and the older architects are unable to stay current or proficient. The next thing you know.... they aren't involved in a detailed manner with the creation of the drawings.
It seems to me that more and more work is being done at the CAD operator level and BIM basically allows a project manager (or project architect - how ever a firm has set up their teams) a way not to spend his time reviewing and coordinating the project - thus the chance for more mistakes. |
Sorry. But this sounds just like comments made to me 10 years ago. Only the problem then was people using computers and software like PowerCADD and how it was taking the design process away from architects and turning it over to "CAD operators". |
Yeah does sound like that.... for me those were comments I heard 18 years ago Did not mean for it to sound like that
Personally - I think its important that everyone on the design team know how to use the CAD programs. Of course, when your as small a firm as I - you have to know it.
What I am trying to say is that there were comments made by the design professionals at the roundtable that BIM would reduce coordination problems which seemed to me to be pushing off the responsibility to lower levels of inexperienced staff. Its human nature to look for the path of least resistance and I am already seeing some laxed attitudes of senior designers at some of my larger subconsultants. I basically am putting more time reviewing and coordinating their work in addition to reviewing for coordination with my work. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 846
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| GaryV wrote: | | Quote: | | Can we take dwg files and translate them into a BIM format? Lets take a project done in ACAD 5 years ago.... the client comes back to the original architect and wants an interior renovation. |
I am pretty sure this is not possible but this is based on only one experoence with a Revit user. I think the Revit model needs to be created from scratch.
I do know you can take a Revit model and export it to dwg and get 2d dwg files. However, going the other way is not possible except for possibly using the dwg files on a layer you would ultimately hide, to create the Revit model "on top of", like you can do with SU. In the end though you are basically starting from scratch with little value from the original dwg files.
-Gary |
During the roundtable, the design professionals stated that the M/P/E component (of Revit) was only a couple of years old and there were a lot of component building compared to the architectural part, which I guess has 5-7 years of development behind it.
Also.... unlike ACAD.... only one person can work on the model. So for large projects where multiple people are working on the project, they break the model into parts.... ie: a 6 story building would be broken down into 3 two story models and then merged later. At which point only one CAD person can work on the project.
During the roundtable, the college instructor showed a promo video from Revit as an overview of BIM..... the project being demonstrated was the new Trade Center building by SOM..... can you imagine the number of models you would have to make so you could get all of the staff you need working on it.
I think for long term viability..... ES may want to explore developing a BIM product, while maintaining PC as the core product. Just my passing thoughts. I need to study BIM in more detail. But at the moment, I am working toward LEED certification. So studying/researching BIM in more detail will not happen until the second quarter of this year at the earliest. |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 763
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: |
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A couple of comments.
As for this forum being quiet, one reason is that the reliability of the software is through the roof. All crashes are sent automatically to a server and then analyzed with the crash log. It's made a huge difference in getting the reliability of the software up. It's been about nine months since I've had a bug to fix in WildTools, though there have been some crashes that we can't zero in on well enough to find something to fix. ES is doing a good job of fixing bugs in PowerCADD, and there haven't been many.
Another reason is that we are victims of our own success. The previous versions worked well enough to that most people could draw anything they wanted to. It's almost impossible for people to conceptualize what improvements to software will mean for them until they use the new software.
As for BIM, as I understand it, this is all about building a three-dimensional model of the design, and then the program cranks out the drawings for you and solves all sorts of design problems. There are all sorts of programs out there that do this type of thing. The big aerospace companies use mainframe programs where thousands of engineers are working on the same design, one big model with lots of fingers in it. The complexity of the software goes up exponentially as you add users, and the administration of this is all about who has permission to work on what. One thing I learned back in the early 1990s was that the drawing tools for even the most basic CAD program on a Mac or PC were vastly superior to what they have on these big systems.
I've looked at a lot of these types of programs and none of them interest me in the slightest. The only thing I've ever been interested in is drawing, and I love a good drawing.
Alfred |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 534
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| It is foolishness to create a three dimensional model and then slice it into traditional "working drawings". When that second step is eliminated I'll be interested in exploring BIM. |
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