Jumping Layers, PC7

[robedu]

I've posted about this problem before but received no constructive answers. Thought I'd try again . . . Whenever I select a relatively large number of objects, the active layer switches -- with no particular logic or regularity. Some other layer suddenly becomes active, apparently at random. This is remarkably irksom, because I often find myself drawing on the wrong layer.

Anyone else have this problem as well, or better yet, a solution?

Also, is it disrespectful to ask when PC7 might be poking its head around the corner?

Bob Begun

[pdoug]

Bob,

I just tried this on a drawing with many layers and I am getting the same results! The active layer changes to a different layer. This is amazing! I haven't noticed it until I tried this after reading your post.

Not sure what the cause is and if it will or is already happening on all my drawings... something to watch out for.

But as you say, I selected many objects in the drawing and the active layer changes - very weird. I am using the latest everything... the drawing I have tried it on has many different layers with different scales (maybe there is something to that?)

Anyway Bob, you're not alone!

Anyone else?....

[huc]

I"m not seeing that condition

PowerCADD 6.2.1 build EE17
Mac OS X 10.4.3 or 10.4.2

When I do this in a multi-layer/multi-object file:

a) edit all layers on
b) perform a select all
c) multiple objects selected across multiple layers
d) the active layer does not change

or

a) edit all layers on
b) use selection tool to perform a marquis, select by drag, operation
c) multiple objects selected across multiple layers
d) the active layer does not change

Items to consider:
- is this file specific or across all files
- is a key command assigned to WTools 'match' menu item and is that key being accidentally pressed
- is layer tools turned on and is there a corresponding layer name in the document... choosing the text tool for example may be auto switching to the text layer
- does it always switch to the same layer in the file or a different layer each time
- is OS 9 or OS X being used. 'latest' was noted but latest for which OS?
- 'relative large number of objects'... the status window will indicate a specific object count. How many objects are selected when the problem occurs? Is this a threshold where fewer selected objects does not display the problem?

Some of the above may help you isolate the specific cause/effect and help others try to recreate the condition.

hope that helps
Brian

[robedu]

Hi Brian,

Here are some more details:

- PowerCADD 6.2.1 build EE17, OS X 10.4.2 (although it was happening in earlier versions of OS X and PC6 as well).

- With a "select all" the problem doesn't seem to occur, only with a selection marquis.

- AND . . . I've tried out pretty much every other means of making a large selection with both PowerCADD and WildTools (including polygon select, lasso, and magic wand), and it ONLY OCCURS when dragging a marquis with the selection arrow tool (with or without the Command key pressed to toggle between select enclosing/touching).

- The threshold seems to be by around 2,000 selected items, although it's not very consistent, as it sometimes occurs with a smaller selection, and sometimes it doesn't occur at all . . . and I don't mean Monday yes and Tuesday no, I mean I can select a group of items and nothing happens, and then I can deselect and make exactly the same selection again, and the layer jumps!

- The problem is not file specific, it is across all files.

- There is no key command accidentally being pressed.

- I don't use layer tools, but I turned it on and off to see what would happen, and it has no effect.

- No, it doesn't always switch to the same layer. In fact I can make a large selection, and it switches. I can then deselect all by clicking in empty space and make the same selection again, and it switches again to a third layer. It will jump from the top of the layer list to the bottom, or somewhere in the middle, or just on notch down. No discernible rhyme or reason.

- With edit all layers turned off the problem doesn't occur.

Thanks for your help. (What about that pesky PC7 question?).

Bob

[pdoug]

Brian,

What Bob describes above is exactly what I am seeing as well when using the selection tool and a selection marquis is created.

The term "Latest" was an attempt to generalize system and pcadd builds and info of the like. So what I meant by latest is the most recent version of pcadd/wt etc. and the latest OS.

Again, everyhting Bob describes above is happening here too, so something is a bit off... what it is though is very hard to predict - so just try it out! If making a selection using the selection tool doesn't give you the same result who knows what that means?!

I did notice, it happens almost everytime when you select a large number of objects......which I do very rarely and which is why, until I read Bob's post and went into a drawing I had opened and tried it I never noticed it before. It is something very easily missed if you're only selecting a few objects at a time.

Another Powercadd anomaly....

[huc]

In one hour of testing, I can recreate the condition but it's hit or miss. Here's what I explored and found.

- problem does not occur in all files
- selection must be done by marquis (i.e. drag to select touching objects). Performing a select all doesn't produce the problem
- edit all layers must be on
- threshold of selected # of objects appears to be approximately 2200. I.e. in a file that exhibits the problem, selecting fewer than ±2200 objects and the random layer switch does not occur. Selecting more than that and the switch occurs

why it occurs in some files and not others is still a mystery. The only pattern I've seen thus far is in one drawing which originally did not exhibit the problem. I then ungrouped everything and the problem appeared. That would imply a problem related to ungrouping external groups, dimensions, ungrouping symbol objects, or some other complex object. However I've not peeled the onion any further to determine what specifically recreated the problem -- the thoughts noted thus far are just speculation and possible starting points to isolate things further.

When I saw the above, I created a new untitled drawing with 5000 objects on three layers. 1500 lines (layer 1) 2000 circles (layer 2) 1500 rectangles (layer 3). I cannot recreate the automatic layer switching problem in that file.

So there seems to be some important information coming out of this that points to a few things for consideration (There are no doubt others):

a) the problem does not appear in all drawings for me

b) the problem can be forced to appear in a drawing which does not normally exhibit the problem by ungrouping everything in the drawing. This appears to indicate a possible source as being a problem object(s) type(s) but that is inconclusive

c) the problem cannot be recreated in a new, untitled drawing, with 5000 new, clean objects. This lends some support to why (a) happens and some support as to why (b)

d) the reason the problem does not occur in (c) could be related to the number of layers, types of objects, # of objects per layer or a variety of other possibilities. However starting with (c) as a baseline seems reasonable.

e) the problem only occurs with Select by marquis, a select all doesn't do it. That is, objects must be physically touched to create the problem. So, it's possible the layer being switched to is the layer containing the object to be first or last touched upon when the selection marquis was drawn.

f) the type of input device, traditional Apple mouse, wacom stylus or wacom wireless mouse, doesn't matter. I tested this since it's possible a third party input device drivers are doing something odd in registering the mouse up or mouse down operation. This has happened before with other OS X level selection issues such as sampling colors with some devices where the mouse location wasn't correctly registered.

The information is sketchy at best but it may give you enough of a baseline to start looking at your particular drawings to see if you can find a pattern or order of operation issue. Hopefully the above will give you some ideas on where to start trying to further isolate the problem

Until the problem can be recreated, consistently, there is no way to know where the problem actually is. Some discussions with and sending example drawings to EngSW might be a reasonable course of action -- if they don't have the information in hand it's difficult for them to try and peel things apart.

[huc]

[Derek]

OK, I've had a play and can add some more info.

I have been able to reproduce the bug under the following conditions:

1. Select Enclosing either ON or OFF.

2. Only need more than one layer in the drawing for the jump to be possible.

3. Can happen if all objects are on one layer and the other layer(s) are empty.

I've also found I can reproduce the effect and have found the problem is triggered during the selecting process. Watch the movie I have posted at the link below.

In the drawing there are 2021 objects, all on Layer 1.
Most of the objects are lots of lines positioned in groups of 200 (note they are not actually Grouped)

First I selected only the first three groups (ie 600 lines) and no problem.

Next I selected more lines and if you watch carefully, you will see the live highlighting of all the selected lines momentarily blink and then all objects are re-highlighted. On release of the mouse, the layers jump.

Now the interesting part, the jump in layers ONLY occurs for me if I see this blink during the selection process and in the case of the movie below, it is happening at around about 900 objects in the selection process.

The number of objects selected when the blink occurs is not always consistent and it seems to depend on:
• total number of objects in the drawing
• speed of the selection process ie how fast you're dragging the mouse.

Hope this helps the guys at Eng Sw sort it out.

Here is the movie: JumpLayer Movie (334KB)

D.

[Derek]

Just another thing...

If you turn off live Highlighting the problem still occurs but the threshold when the blink occurs is at a far greater number of selected objects.

D.

[huc]

D.
Good catch
H

[robedu]

That's interesting. I've never noticed it before, but I'm also experiencing that "blink" shown in the video clip, after which the layer almost invariably jumps. Whenever the number of objects is small enough that the blink doesn't occur, then the layer remains stable.

By the way, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the type of objects chosen. I've used the selection filter in every way possible to test this out, and there doesn't appear to be any effect.

Bob

[pdoug]

Hey all!

After reading some of the latest posts I was encouraged to try this out again. The things I am able to report as consistent are these:

With Highlite Selection on - I can create the blink as described and very cleverly shown in the video above. What I have noticed here is that regardless of selection speed the blinking will happen. Also, I have noticed going at a slower rate of selection the blink will occur somewhere between 400-600 objects (this would be a slower selection speed than that shown in the video - Can't say exactly how much slower, but it doesn't really matter anyway since the blinking occurs at all speeds I have tried). What I have noticed with this is, if I stop selection when the blink occurs I can avoid the jump in layers. If I continue to select I can almost everytime get the active layer to jump to another layer.

The important catch here is this....

With Highlite Selection off - I can't get the active layer to jump. This leads me to believe a good place for ES to start looking is with Highlite Selection. (this is just a suggestion on my part based on trying to re-create the jump in layers, I am not a programmer so I actually have no idea) All I know is, for me the problem went away when I shut off Highlite Selection.

Hope this is somewhat helpful....

[jasonlocher]

I have a file that can reproduce this problem regularly. It has several thousand objects in it. It has 10 layers, 6 of which have color and scale set. When I activate "Edit All Layers", then select all, then Copy, the layer switches. I'm not really willing to put this file up to share, but the actions taken to initiate the layer jump should be tested on other machines / files to find a pattern. This occurs with highlight selection both on and off.

[Derek]

[pdoug]

Okay, okay...I got the layers to jump with Highlite selection off. What i found was the blinking occured around 3000± objects selected and then the layers jumped after making the selection. In my brief testing earlier, I was only selecting so many objects in my file.